Posted by benjammin37 (anonymous) on November 6, 2009 at 1:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Todd has never been a member of this C-Street Group. His name is mentioned because he happened to be at an event there when Sharlet was there. A constant at these meeting is Jerry Moran! In fact, check out his list of endorsements compared with members of The Family.

Posted by create (anonymous) on November 6, 2009 at 1:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So is this a Republican aristocracy?

Posted by HenryVIII (anonymous) on November 6, 2009 at 2:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The point of this book review is a little confusing. I’m not sure what the intentions of the author are, but it seems like a good place for a rant!

Basically, they don't practice what they preach. For non-religious types this is just called lying, but it's funny to me when they say their decisions are based on "God's word" and then they go and do questionable things.
I don't care if you fool around with a mistress (none of my business), but don't tell me I'm going to burn for eternity because I drink beer on Sunday instead of wasting time and money at church. Don't act like you are better than me because you are religious. It doesn't mean you're better for believing the Bible, just more gullible.
It is very annoying when people bring religion into politics. God says we shouldn’t abort babies, eh? God says we shouldn’t sell beer on Sundays either, huh? Did that same god say we should have mistresses and lie too? Keep your personal religious beliefs out of the country’s politics. You don’t want to end-up like some of those Middle-Eastern countries do you? Their “political” parties are highly based on religious affiliation and look at all the problems they have! Huh?…what’s that?...You need your soap box back?...Ok, here you go…sorry, I’ll be on my way now…
'enry

Posted by biscuitboy (anonymous) on November 6, 2009 at 3:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

'enry......

Though I agree with much of what you say in principle, I think the vast majority of everyday Christians are very capable of recognizing hypocrisy when they see it in their everyday life. The problem arises mostly with those very people that are so intent on pushing a political agenda through religion but seem to believe those moral rules they want to apply to everybody else somehow doesn't apply to them.

I find their holier than thou stance highly suspect and question their motives from the start. A Christian's natural tendency to trust things that claim to be christian makes them sometimes very vulnerable to the claims of these charlatans as well as very reluctant to speak out against them in much the same way as mainstream Muslims are sometimes reluctant to speak out against their own charlatans.

Posted by create (anonymous) on November 6, 2009 at 4:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't always agree with you, Henry, but this time, I do. Well said. You too biscuit. I can't add much at all except to say I believe I will download this book at the main library for my MP3 player. Something to listen to while I quilt.

Posted by methusla (anonymous) on November 6, 2009 at 5:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

HenryVIII
Most of the time I do not agree with you, however this time I do agree with most of what you said ! This was a good one !

Posted by oh4theluvof (anonymous) on November 6, 2009 at 5:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Time for Rule 4.

Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on November 6, 2009 at 5:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Not only are the vast majority of everyday Christians very capable of recognizing hypocrisy when they see it in their everyday life, but they also realize that anyone who acts or has the "holier than thou" attitude because of religion..... or thinks they are better than others because of that........ is not practicing Christianity. They are pretty much practicing the exact opposite. Christianity teaches humility and compassion, not smug attitudes.

I wish more non-religious types would get that thru their thick skulls ;-)

Posted by biscuitboy (anonymous) on November 6, 2009 at 6:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

And I wish some christians would learn to recognize the lack of same qualities in some people claiming to be Christian. :-)

Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on November 6, 2009 at 8:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What part of the first paragraph of my post went zoom right over your head? ;-)

Posted by Observation (anonymous) on November 6, 2009 at 9:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

open-eyes;
you are dead on

Posted by tbluma (anonymous) on November 6, 2009 at 10:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Henry
Do you think that we shouldn't be able to pray at school, before a sporting event, or as some e-mail that I've seen of soldiers praying before battle.
If you do then you're bringing religion into politics.
God may have never said anything about abortion but I believe there is something about murder.
God never said anything about a mistress but He might have mentioned adultry.
And I'm quite positive God never said anything about Sunday beer sales,( I give you that one).
Basicly you are right to some extent, there are religious people who are hipocrites just as there are atheists who are the same.
I don't always agree with everything my church preaches, that's where a little common sense comes in.
I feel like I am open to most beliefs but in this case if you believe what you posted YOU CAN KISS MY ASS

Posted by biscuitboy (anonymous) on November 7, 2009 at 5:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Now there is a humble and compassionate view for you! One thing I will say for you tbluma...you rarely ever disappoint

Posted by biscuitboy (anonymous) on November 7, 2009 at 7:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

open_eyes

It sounds to me like we are once again on the same page if you would just open your eyes enough to see it. I thought I was saying pretty much the same thing you did but at the same time I was trying to recognize how it is sometimes easy to be fooled by people that talk the talk without walking the walk. Apology accepted....:-)

Posted by ToxicPink (anonymous) on November 7, 2009 at 8:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Well maybe you have to bring it in a bit to kick it out.

I want my kids raised in a non religious way, I want them raised to make up their own minds about what they believe in through personal means. I want them to know where they stand on issues from research, understanding of the matter and through them decide what to believe in rather then have someone tell them what to believe in. (I can't beat peer pressure completely, but I hope to raise individuals not sheep.)

I do not want my kids praying in a classroom. I do not want religion there unless they are taking a class to learn about different ones.

Go ahead and tell Henry to kiss your ass, that's highly Christian of you. So understanding and tolerate of other people. At least for me I can argue something when I want to without insulting others, don't' get me wrong I quite enjoy trolling the hell out of some of you, but at least when I post something serious I don't prove a point of another.

But, I'm burned on Christianity for the most part, there is only so many times you can be told you're going to hell for not being Christian. The most disgusting thing I was told was that I was INCAPABLE of finding beauty in this world because I didn't have a higher power. I'm a little curious about how that one works.

I think it would be people need the common sense to kick in when it comes to the fact that this country has more then one religious system and our government doesn't need to be oppressing all the others for the sake of one.

Posted by biscuitboy (anonymous) on November 7, 2009 at 8:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I have never known humility and compassion to turn to absolute unmitigated hate any quicker than it does when some so-called Christians learn they are talking to a non-believer. Then the first words out of their mouths is almost always to tell me how much I hate all Christians. I don't hate all Christians...I only hate those who claim to be Christian while preaching a gospel of hate and intolerance to others.

Posted by tbluma (anonymous) on November 7, 2009 at 9:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Sorry about that I shouldn't let enry get under my skin so easy.

Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on November 7, 2009 at 9:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I think we're saying the same thing in circles around each other, biscuitboy. I was saying that many are able to recognize and not be fooled by people that talk the talk without walking the walk, but somehow I didn't open my eyes enough to realize you were talking about people being fooled by people who talk the talk without walking the walk????????? What did I miss??? Did I doze off in the middle of reading your post??? LOLOLOL ;-)

I've also seen humility and compassion turn instantly into unmitigated hate in the blink of an eye by all sorts of people, whether religious or not. I guess the difference is you seem to single out the hypocrites and and bring them up every single time religion is even whispered in a dark corner, as if those are representative of all. Not only are they not representative of all, but they don't even represent Christianity. Preaching a gospel of hate and intolerance is pretty much 180 degrees opposite of what Jesus taught. I'm with you there. I don't hate them, though, I feel sad for them. That's one difference between us, I guess. I don't hate even those misguided ones. Atheist or religious. I guess every time someone brings up the subject I could start ranting about the numerous times I've been wronged and treated unfairly by non-religious people, but I don't see the point in that. They are what they are, we all have faults, but just because some people wrong me I won't apply it to the whole. Every time someone breathes the word atheist here I don't see a bunch of posters start complaining about all the times they were treated bad by someone who was non-religious (and don't tell me that's because it doens't happen). If some of you have an axe to grind why don't you take it up with those responsible?

Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on November 7, 2009 at 9:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I think we've come back to the old argument that it's ok to be a liar and crook as long as you don't profess to be a Christian, but if you do, it is instantly 10 times worse then. Well, not ok, but not nearly as bad. News flash: Christianity teaches that none of us are perfect, not one. In other words, not only will I fail at times, but I am GUARANTEED to fail. STRIVING towards a goal, attempting to do what I believe is right, is not the same as claiming to be the perfect embodiment of that goal. But, by even having a goal, apparently I set myself up for an even bigger fall, correct?
I think I'm going to claim to hate everyone, steal all I can, and just generally be as nasty and rude as I possibly can. Then when I occasionally do something nice everyone can stop and revel in my huge improvements here and there........ keep expectations low, that's the key to success, I think I'm hearing.... ;-)

Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on November 7, 2009 at 10:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I've gotta run for the day, but before I get off my soapbox, it occured to me that this actually can be turned to a positive thing at times when Henry, biscuitboy, create and others always instantly go on a rant about hypociticial Christians every single time religion is even so much as whispered. I think it's a wonderful opportunity to turn something to good. I hope every Christian reading their complaints takes a good long look in the mirror and examines their behavior. (Including me). I hope ministers read their blogs and do entire sermons on Christians acting in a hypocritical manner. I hope they talk to their congregations about how some of them behave in a manner that Jesus would never condone. I hope you've given many a wakeup call to pause and reflect on how they act and how it is perceived by others.
And I thank you all for your honesty and candidness.

Posted by biscuitboy (anonymous) on November 7, 2009 at 10:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

open_eyes

Perhaps I get defensive a bit too quickly at times but no more so than you my friend.

In my initial post on this thread I was, while recognizing that people such as Henry described were a real problem, trying to differentiate those people from the vast majority of real practicing Christians. Now I may not have made myself clear...but that was my intention. I did not start to become defensive at all until after you started lumping me in with the most intolerant part of Henry's post.

I believe that a cursory look at some past exchanges here on religion will show much the same pattern. Intolerant remarks will be made by one side or the other....I will post a tolerant view of both arguments while at the same time making it very clear where I stand on the basic issue of belief.....then I will from that point on be lumped in with the most intolerant of the non-believers.

This has happened with enough regularity that I no longer consider it a coincidence but a pattern. Hence I quickly get defensive.....then my defensiveness is pointed out as proof of my intolerance. It would have been easy for me to give up and become as intolerant as you but I'm not going to let you use that again as proof of my intolerance.

Posted by biscuitboy (anonymous) on November 7, 2009 at 10:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

My initial two paragraphs of my last post were addressed to open eyes...all the rest of the post was addressed to whom ever it might apply to in general.

Posted by Observation (anonymous) on November 7, 2009 at 7:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

bisquicboy; I am glad pointed that out. It was mangling my mind, trying to figure if that was aimed at me or open-eyes or maybe you were just letting the rest of us know about what a bad thinker tbluma is, and how good of a thinker you are. You are so good to share your superior thoughts.

Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on November 7, 2009 at 8:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

biscuitboy, I apologize for the "lumping". But it seems, as I've said, the merest whisper is enough to bring condemnation from certain people. I feel for them and how they have been treated, I truly do. But sometimes one just wants to say get over it already. I feel no need to go on frequent tirades against atheists because I've met a few who claimed their morals and values were just fine without religion but did not live up to it often. There's lots of people that can't see the mote in their own eye, from every walk of life. I'M a Christian and I can recognize hypocrisy in religion. But I see it outside of it, too...... and I try to not sit and judge one as being somehow lesser than the other.......

Posted by biscuitboy (anonymous) on November 8, 2009 at 4:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I too try not to throw the baby out with the bath. There are many many times more good faithful Christians out there than there are the few bad apples. There are also many times more good and honest non-believers out there just trying to live the best life they know how as there are the manics and madmen who give us all a bad name. I always try to recognize that fact on both sides.

But please don't automatically jump to the conclusion that my non-believe means I hate Christians. My non-believe only means that I have not been able to bring my self to believe....nothing more!

Posted by create (anonymous) on November 8, 2009 at 6:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)

There you go again, open_eyes, making a hasty generalization and lumping people together. Holy macaroni! For someone who likes to speak from an arguable position then to do this is, quite honestly, rather perplexing.

I never said all Christians were hypocrites or bad people. Please! If I said that, I'd be condemning my own father who was one of the most devout believers I've ever known. Despite that, however, he did not attend church because he believed that a man did not have to attend church in order to believe and practice the tenets of those beliefs. He was a good man in everything he did. Did he tithe? No. Instead, as a businessman, he did more to help the community than most people probably did because he was approached more often than those who were not in the business world. I have patterned my own life after his.

I do not belong to any organized religion because I don't believe church membership is necessary in order to have a belief system. There are many belief systems, incidentally, who do just as much good in the world as do Christians. Please don't take that statement as my being anti-Christian.

My opinion is based on my own experience and I will say that I do get rather irritated with some people who profess to be good Christians, who go through all the rituals and appearances of being good Christans, but then act quite the opposite in their daily lives. I see this often in politicians and the wrecked lives some of them live.

For the sake of argument, we can likely agree that we both see things as far as our experience has taken us. Your claim, "There's lots of people that can't see the mote in their own eye, from every walk of life." is something with which I can agree. I believe I have stated so.

Now don't lump me together with others. I don't like it. If you want to address me and my opinions separately and directly, have at it. You appear to be as if you are gossipping when you mention other names as you have. Be direct. Say it loud and clear, "Create can be a bitch sometimes." Even I'll agree to that. Just don't lump me together with others.

Posted by goodoleboy (anonymous) on November 8, 2009 at 9:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Politics and Religion, they mix about as well as fire and gasoline.

Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on November 8, 2009 at 9:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I, too, see quite a few non-religious people who go thru the appearances and claims of being a good, decent, person, but then act the opposite in their daily lives. I, too, see this often in politicians and the wrecked lives some of them live.

Your point has been made, often. So I will repeat myself:

"I feel no need to go on frequent tirades against atheists because I've met a few who claimed their morals and values were just fine without religion but often did not live up to them."

In other words, every time someone even hints atheism or non-belief or non-religiosity, I don't predictably go on a rant about how some atheists or non-believers are huge hypocrites. (You can almost set your watch by it ;-). I know some are. I know some in every group are, religious or non. I've even (unfortunately) been guilty of hypocrisy myself at times.

That point doesn't confuse me nearly as much as it seems to confuse others.......

But, hey, like I said, I hope good comes of it. People can always use a good wake-up call at times. Much like the media (well, some of it) - we all need a good watchdog at times to remind us when we're stepping out of line. And unlike our current administration, I'm not trying to discredit the watchdog, so my apologies to any and all I may have offended ;-)

Posted by HenryVIII (anonymous) on November 9, 2009 at 11:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

tbluma,
I think people should be allowed to pray at school and sporting events, but only on their own time. I don’t think people should be forced to be exposed to it when they may not share the same beliefs. I also don’t think people should be ostracized when they don’t want to participate in such activity.

If you are going to allow little Christian boys and girls to say a prayer in class, you need to let all the other religions/beliefs do their thing too. The atheist kids will need to be represented too, so they’ll go to the front of class and do a lecture on why god doesn’t exist. Pretty soon, you’ll be using up the first half of the day saying prayers to all the different gods… What if my religion requires me to pray 4 hours straight? Should we allow that in class?

Here are a couple questions for you: Would you want your kid sitting in class while the teacher says some Muslim prayers? Do you think evolution (a proven fact that contradicts the Bible) should be taught in school?

I DO think the Pledge of Allegiance should be said in class, BUT the “under god” part should be removed. If you are an American, you should be allied to your country. If you aren’t willing to pledge an allegiance with our country (and your fellow citizens), you need to get out. You DON’T, however, need to be allied to any particular god in order to be an American. That’s what America is all about.

You say I can “kiss your [blank]”... Well, you can go ahead and “turn the other cheek” then! ;)

ToxicPink,
You said, “I can't beat peer pressure completely, but I hope to raise individuals not sheep.”

I completely agree. Often times, people are only “religious” because their family was. They think that going to church and subscribing to Christianity will help them “fit in” in society. Wanting to “fit in” or be seen as “normal” is a driving force for people to choose a popular religion like Christianity. This is where that peer pressure comes in. It may not be popular to not go to church, so they’ll go just to keep up appearances.

A lot of times couples won’t go to church until they have a kid. I think this is only because they fear what people will say about them if they don’t raise a Christian kid. They think it’ll be easier on the kid if he or she can say they’re a Christian when asked by their schoolmates. You can teach a child morals without portraying 2000 year old fairytales as facts.

Religious people are sheep and sheep ain’t very smart. They’ll follow that shepherd without doing any thinking for themselves even though that shepherd has no idea where he is going or what he is doing. I think they hang around that shepherd due to the false sense of security. Little do they know, the wolves will still get ‘em in the night. Sad really… If they did some thinking for themselves, perhaps they could have been prepared to protect themselves from the wolves that lurk in the darkness.
‘enry